User profile for alex.weatherall

True. This points again to getting a command line, or automation interface to this RGDT asap, and once again reverting back to our tool of choice - SQL! Thanks Alex Weatherall TeleWare.com / comments

True. This points again to getting a command line, or automation interface to this RGDT asap, and once again reverting back to our tool of choice - SQL! Thanks Alex Weatherall TeleWare.com

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Hi, Are these scenarios possible to determine using dependency tracker? If not maybe these could be added as a feature in the future? Thanks Alex / comments

Hi, Are these scenarios possible to determine using dependency tracker? If not maybe these could be added as a feature in the future? Thanks Alex

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Hi Bart, Thought it must be something to do with how to distinguish between objects and variables, inbuilt functions etc. I can see how it's easier to apply the rule that all identifiers should be 2 part names so that your parser can distinguish them. :idea: Surely there are some basic rules you can apply to identify likely objects as opposed to variables and system functions etc. In short: 1. @ sign denotes a local variable or parameter 2. # sign denotes temporary table or procedure 3. If the identifiermyid matches a DECLARE myid within the same scope stack (i.e. BEGIN END constructs) that it is referenced then that is a local object (variable, cursor) and can be ignored. (not simple but possible) 4. Compare the identifier name to a list of system keywords This list isn't exhaustive, but by applying these simple rules I think you can make your list of possible dependent objects more accurate. :?: I assume that when you get the identifiers, you parse all the text of each object to determine it's use and can apply certain parsing rules. I have been writing a similar parser to try and get round the problems of dependency tracking; however this was a pet project, and I've been unable to get it to a usable level yet. Anyway, hope you can do something to make the deferred name resolution more robust. Thanks, Alex Weatherall TeleWare.com / comments

Hi Bart, Thought it must be something to do with how to distinguish between objects and variables, inbuilt functions etc. I can see how it's easier to apply the rule that all identifiers should be ...

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Hi, Just written a really long addendum to my post but login timed out and I lost it!! Doh! :oops: I was just commenting that the other area that DT handles, that has been a bugbear of mine for ages, is Deferred Name Resolution. It's hit and miss (seems to only work with 2 part names - a habit I try to stick to but why not a one part name? :?: ) But at least it does report missing tables, views and table functions that are referenced by stored procedures. If DNR references were tightened up. I'd definitely consider getting DT. But again, I would not want the diagrams. Is it possible to add a "fast mode" where you just load the objects in and are able to traverse the object tree in the toolbars without waiting for the diagrammer to catch up. I did select all on one of my databases and it took over a minute to select the objects in the diagram. I just don't see it being responsive enough. [image] Thanks, Alex Weatherall TeleWare.com / comments

Hi, Just written a really long addendum to my post but login timed out and I lost it!! Doh! :oops: I was just commenting that the other area that DT handles, that has been a bugbear of mine for age...

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Hi, I think Alphadog's points are key here. Whilst the dependency viewer is a powerful tool, with the powerful graphical interface, the real point is that the power is in the behind the scenes dependancy logic which is I believe Redgate's proprietory algorithm. Its more complete, acurate and reliable than the sysdepends data. As a database developer I would far rather have this information in a queryable (the XML is great) format and be able to add that into our build process, and automated documentation. I wouldn't necessarily buy the product for the fancy interface, but for the more reliable dependency data. I would want a command line option that would give me the XML output for a particular database that I could then query. Even better, can you not add that functionality into SQL Compare, so where you can save a snap shot, beable to save the dependancy data. (Am I right in thinking this is used internally in SQLCompare, so it should be possible to do.) I'm not trying to get something for nothing ;-) but having played with the new version today, the only thing I would use regularly is the XML output, and the list and tree view in the toolbar. The diagram, while clever and impressive, is too slow and complicated for databases with many (100's - 1000s) of schema and interface objects. I say keep it simple. Still a very impressive product, (not sure about the odd menu interface :? ) Thanks Alex Weatherall TeleWare.com / comments

Hi, I think Alphadog's points are key here. Whilst the dependency viewer is a powerful tool, with the powerful graphical interface, the real point is that the power is in the behind the scenes depe...

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Alphadog, I see what you're saying, so the change audit in this case would be comparing, say, the XML output of RGDT for version 1.1 of your database to the XML output for version 1.2. This would give you the high level changes on dependency and so help with troubleshooting etc. I would also use the RGDT output in database documentation generation. I'm working on an autogenerated documentation process, and it uses sysdepends info to provide links to related objects in the documentation. It would be better to use the RGDT XML output as it is more accurate, but this is a side benefit. Yes you're right, we need something like the build and Source Control logic of DBGhost, the Dependency data from RGDT and so-on all building into one process. We have a in house process here, that is partly automated (getting better), and so it's just a case of plugging in the RGDT information at the appropriate points. We all seem to roll our own database build processes, it would be great if there was the product out there to do it all for us! But I guess that would spoil our fun ;-) Alex / comments

Alphadog, I see what you're saying, so the change audit in this case would be comparing, say, the XML output of RGDT for version 1.1 of your database to the XML output for version 1.2. This would g...

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Hi, I would use RGDT for: :arrow: impact analysis. After your description of how you had expected users to use DT I can see it's uses here. However... Alphadog's comment is pertinent. The initial user interface allows you to add all database objects too easily, giving you the impression that you can or should use the tool like this. I think the initial user interface is complicated by the list of servers. This could be be a far simpler affair: connect to the database ala SQL Compare. Then why not have the "objects in database" panel (and search engine) as a dockable window instead of in the initial wizard. The search engine is great. Good that it narrows down the list. Having used the product a little bit more in the manner you expected (i.e. adding specific objects to the project to examine their dependencies rather than "diagramming" a database) I see the benefits a bit more than I could. However I found myself just using the "objects on diagram" and "object dependencies" panels (I dock one to the left and one to the right and fill the screen with them to get rid of the diagram) to navigate round. I find that the diagram isn't an efficient way to navigate round the dependencies. If you have an object with many dependencies, you have to zoom in and out to follow the dependency lines and when zoomed out, you can't read the object text. I find the "objects on diagram" panel far easier to use than the diagram itself. :arrow: I also would also use this product retrospectively: on a build (in an automated process), to double check things like deferred name resolution etc. Alphadog also said he would use this tool for change auditing. Surely you'd use SQL Compare for that. I don't understand how RGDT helps in that respect. Alphadog, can you explain how you would use this DT to audit changes :?: Thanks Alex Weatherall TeleWare.com / comments

Hi, I would use RGDT for: :arrow: impact analysis. After your description of how you had expected users to use DT I can see it's uses here. However... Alphadog's comment is pertinent. The initial ...

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Absolutely! While I always appreciate a good user interface (btw not sure about the menu panels?), and did go WOW when the diagram morphed from one configuration to another, that won't convince me that I need this product. Features should be: reliable dependency data a simple user interface to drill down the dependencies a simple HTML/XML reporting option (like SQL Compare) and automation. What we need in software/database development tools are ways for us to automate common tasks. We need to save time in development and build processes. SQL Compare does this very effectively. I'm not sure RGDT will do this as well; unless the diagram is a feature, not the main application. To reiterate AlphaDog's sentiments, this isn't meant as negative criticism. I'm trying to highlight the need for development tools like SQL Compare. A successful tool for the busy DBA. If this product is marketed towards Pointy Haired Boss [image] then concentrate on the diagram feature. If its the DBA or DBD then we need need Automation and solid dependency data. "Steak" over "sizzle" every time! [image] Alex Weatherall TeleWare.com / comments

Absolutely! While I always appreciate a good user interface (btw not sure about the menu panels?), and did go WOW when the diagram morphed from one configuration to another, that won't convince me ...

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I agree, both of Aaron's suggestions would be very useful. a) The list could have the last 5-10 servers and then below that the rest of the servers from the network poll. b) Great idea, to make selecting, deselecting objects to synchronise easier/more flexible. Especially useful if you have a naming convention that uses common codes or prefixes in your object names. Another couple of suggestions: c) The ability to select the dependent objects, (right click maybe) of an object that you have just selected. Also to be able to filter the list to the objects that are selected only. d) I also suggested a drop down list in the toolbar to allow you to save common filters and options. So you could have a user definable set of common filters. e.g. My list might include. All Objects except users and roles - no permissions All interface objects Tables and Views - ignore collation This would make choosing different filter combinations alot easier Cheers, Alex / comments

I agree, both of Aaron's suggestions would be very useful. a) The list could have the last 5-10 servers and then below that the rest of the servers from the network poll. b) Great idea, to make sel...

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