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RichardD wrote: AvonWyss wrote: ... they don't seem to understand how much this all really pisses off people. Well, they didn't until recently! [image] No, they still don't really get it. See why in my post I made right after their annoucement: http://www.red-gate.com/MessageBoard/viewtopic.php?t=13327 / comments

RichardD wrote: AvonWyss wrote: ... they don't seem to understand how much this all really pisses off people. Well, they didn't until recently! No, they still don't really get it. See why...

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sssw28 wrote: I'm not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure Red Gate is not violating any laws in wanting to charge for something that was previously "free". By downloading and installing V6 one had to agree to a license agreement. This agreement is legally binding for both parties. This agreement does not set a time use limit on the use of the software, and even less allows them to have the software self-delete. They have no obligation to provide me with new versions, and there is no warranty for any fitness of the application either. That's fine, I don't expect anything like that from free software. However, that arguably doesn't include willful self-destruction or refusing to run because it "expired". I do have a copy of this agreement, so if you want to see it, let me know. The problem is that sueing a company for a free product requires a lot of effort (financially and time) on the sueing party, to maybe get a perpetually working version from them. Reflector is not so unique, there are at least 3 other, really free tools on the market now which do the same or even more than Reflector. So even though it is very likely that Redgate is actually breaking their own license, they get away with it because there's nothing really you can get by sueing them. Apart from some satisfaction if the court decides in your favor, that is. However - and that's the most amazing part - they don't seem to understand how much this all really pisses off people. If you get a one-time gift (agreed on by a legal agreement, mind you), you don't expect it to be taken from you or given the choice to pay for it afterwards. That's extortion. And it's really bad for the reputation. So while it may or may not be true that they didn't get new customers by providing Reflector for free in the past, they have certainly angered quite a few people which will not buy stuff from them anymore for this reason. It's not about 35$, but about being pushed around, robbed, not taken seriously, blackmailed... those feelings stop many people from trusting a company. / comments

sssw28 wrote: I'm not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure Red Gate is not violating any laws in wanting to charge for something that was previously "free". By downloading and installing V6 one had...

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zakizakaria69 wrote: I believe that the charging of this piece of wonderful software is appropriate. The anger here is (mostly) not about their decision to charge for a new version. It's about how they deal with the old version 6 by using a timebomb, self-deletion and after many compaints even adding an activation to the "free" version 6. The licence agreement you had to agree to for downloading and using V6 did not have a limited time validity. Therefore they even do breach their own license terms by limiting the time someone can use V6 - and requiring an activation for the use of the software is (legally) also not part of the license and the limitation to 5 activations even less. / comments

zakizakaria69 wrote: I believe that the charging of this piece of wonderful software is appropriate. The anger here is (mostly) not about their decision to charge for a new version. It's about ...

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Reflector v6 with no expiry date for existing users - but...

...only 5 activations? A serial key that will activate the free V6.8 license on as many as five machines will be sent via email to the user. There will be no other commercial use of email address...

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I quite happily remain using version 6.5.0.135, it asks to update, I say no and nothing malicious happens. I'm behind impenetrable firewall btw. Nothing happens yet. The timebomb is datebound, not via network interaction. Set you computer date to the 1st of June this year and start Reflector, at least mine refused to work then. / comments

I quite happily remain using version 6.5.0.135, it asks to update, I say no and nothing malicious happens. I'm behind impenetrable firewall btw. Nothing happens yet. The timebomb is datebound, ...

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I would be very surprised if you did get an answer from them. If you look around on this forum you'll see that they have been ignoring everyone who didn't ask a question about licensing, even if those were long-time customers. They pride themselves as being the best place to work, providing the best support and supporting the community. Seems to me that they are at least good with two things: pretending a lot of stuff and breaching their own license terms. / comments

I would be very surprised if you did get an answer from them. If you look around on this forum you'll see that they have been ignoring everyone who didn't ask a question about licensing, even if th...

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PStewart, well laid out and exactly to the point. Thank you for this concise post. Greg.Tillman, wow. I must say that I'm just speechless. As far as I can tell this is the one and only answer apart from "the timebomb has always been here" to the issues raised. This just feels like another slap in the face. You (RedGate) don't seem to be taking anyone here seriously but the few ones asking how the licensing model can somehow be made to work for them. Why should I give you money if I'm treated that way? Will you be taking me any more serious if I pay the 35$? And what about the legal license agreement between you and me regarding V6? You're obviously breaking it by timebombing V6, why should I assume that you'll not do the same with the next license? I have been the one evaluating tools in our company and my recommendation led to us buying a SQL Toolbelt, 5 SQL Prompt bundles and 5 SQL Developer bundles, all with some maintenance attached to them. But as it seems even though I have been a well paying customer this is not enough to be taken seriously by RedGate. You don't seem to care at all, you've got my money, right? I guess I learnt my lesson, thank you very much. / comments

PStewart, well laid out and exactly to the point. Thank you for this concise post.Greg.Tillman, wow. I must say that I'm just speechless. As far as I can tell this is the one and only answer apart ...

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mb wrote: Note that the 'granted' license doesn't provide you with much of anything - in fact it has the standard disclaimer that Red Gate don't promise the software will do anything. Apparently, they're actively following through on that. There is a difference between excluding warranties and willful sabotage of the software to render it useless (the expiration date 30 Mai has no technical reason and was willfully set, as you can read yourself in the texts provided by RedGate). §10 does not specify a termination of the right to use the software if the license is not breached or uninstalled by the licensee, therefore if they take away the possibility to use the software they are likely violating §4.1 (a): Reflector License wrote: 4.1 In consideration of the mutual rights and obligations under this License, and subject to the provisions of this clause 4, the Licensor grants to the Licensee for the term of this License a limited, personal, non-exclusive, non-sub-licensable and non-transferable License: (a) to use and copy the Software for the Licensee's own personal or internal business purposes on any computer owned, leased and/or controlled by the Licensee or its employer or organisation for whom the Licensee has installed the Software / comments

mb wrote: Note that the 'granted' license doesn't provide you with much of anything - in fact it has the standard disclaimer that Red Gate don't promise the software will do anything. Apparently...

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wellilein wrote: I just read the license terms. From the Mono.Cecil license I derive that Reflector is free to modify. It seems there are 2 licenses for Reflector, but I prefer the Mono.Cecil license. To the best of my knowledge, Mono.Cecil is licensed under the quite liberal MIT license, which does allow its use in commercial products without much restriction or obligations. It is not a GPL license! / comments

wellilein wrote: I just read the license terms. From the Mono.Cecil license I derive that Reflector is free to modify. It seems there are 2 licenses for Reflector, but I prefer the Mono.Cecil li...

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londoner_86 wrote: However, no-one is FORCING anyone to pay it. By timebombing V6 they do, in fact, take away already granted licenses for the use of V6. That is the thing that is being critisized most and called "evil", not that they want to be a profitable company. But you seem to overlook this in all your praise for RedGate. / comments

londoner_86 wrote: However, no-one is FORCING anyone to pay it. By timebombing V6 they do, in fact, take away already granted licenses for the use of V6. That is the thing that is being critisi...

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